996-7 Turbo Market Watch

[smit2100]

13 hours ago, Joz said:

Whoa!

I wish them good luck, the last one I’d seen close to that(8 months ago) sold for under $90k . I shoulda bought that too!

So series 2 cab with the much more  preferred  gearbox ticked and functional and lockable glovebox , an average of 40 km to 60km  per week travelled  and not a cent to spend on it.   eg plug and play registration and not a leak of air, oil  or liquid   6months post ownership  after  seeing 0.7 bar on the boost guage  regularly for sub 6  figures during covid lockdowns for many  and no mention of WOVR.  Interesting.

[Joz]

3 hours ago, smit2100 said:

So series 2 cab with the much more  preferred  gearbox ticked and functional and lockable glovebox , an average of 40 km to 60km  per week travelled  and not a cent to spend on it.   eg plug and play registration and not a leak of air, oil  or liquid   6months post ownership  after  seeing 0.7 bar on the boost guage  regularly for sub 6  figures during covid lockdowns for many  and no mention of WOVR.  Interesting.

Sorry my mis interpretation, I thought I was looking at a C4S which is what my comments were. I forgot I was in the TT sub forum not the vanilla 996.

Yes I did see the mentioned one on CS, indeed it seems like a stunning car. 

[smit2100]

7 hours ago, Joz said:

Sorry my mis interpretation, I thought I was looking at a C4S which is what my comments were. I forgot I was in the TT sub forum not the vanilla 996.

Yes I did see the mentioned one on CS, indeed it seems like a stunning car. 

Not an administrator by any means, but I was just fact checking for the benefit of newbies.  Can you send me the link of the C4S cab that you were commenting on that is up for grabs.  I'm interested  in what the asking on that is or coincidently is that also going for circa 175k.

Full disclosure, I did let out some expletives to myself to describe what I considered was absolutely fake news as if I was a series 2 cab owner coming across that post of yours before I commented on it via a post.    Would not want to mislead newbies into thinking a cab series 2 turbo with the superior gearbox that appears to be plug and play after your initial outlay could be had for 2015 / 2016 pricing (bottom of the cycle if one was to plot prices in my opinion as a lurker who keeps a lazy eye on prices with a bit of skin in the game) just a mere 8 months ago.  Thats misleading and would  give a newbie starting out their search and doing their homework a false sense of hope of what is the norm / available.  Eg Stunning car based on your own assessment could be had on a 90k budget just circa 8 months ago. 

Just a view, but I  can't  see that level of pricing ($90k)for a manual series 2 of any  996 turbo variant  in decent condition with average odometer reading of up to 75km per week into the future (say at least not in the next 5 years).  Series 1 tippers are perhaps a different story. 

Curious. Have you washed you side air intakes since buying your car?     If so, did you not think, interesting,  a contribution to the 175k  (an assumption) asking for the C4S must have something to do with the side intake mod work done on the hips. I didn't read the ad, but hypothesising, perhaps Magnus  got offered a free trip to Oz from LA  to do some grinder work and  and he etched his signature into the plastic post factory installed side scoops (did he paint them uber orange and airbrush  in black over his etched autograph on the scoops) .  That's worth say at least say a 25k cost plus contribution to  a 85k differential in asking perhaps.  Would be unique right?

 

[Joz]

19 hours ago, smit2100 said:

Not an administrator by any means, but I was just fact checking for the benefit of newbies.  Can you send me the link of the C4S cab that you were commenting on that is up for grabs.  I'm interested  in what the asking on that is or coincidently is that also going for circa 175k.

 

No link it was a sale off market when I just started looking at 996tts. And no it wasn't $175k which is why I stand well corrected, which is why i thought $175 k was extreme./

It was a C4S with about 40kms on it and asking $90k

The cheapest manual TT I found was an extremely neat car again off market asking $130k with 130cliks on it with a nice Kline exhaust and Bilstein coilovers.

These were from my early days of looking and was still processing current pricing.

Yes I have to be careful what  I just post what and where, particularly after a few reds

[Sov]

On 17/03/2022 at 14:41, Essay said:

However, compared to the ask on same spec less than half kilometers and $10K less a la Merv on the for sale section PFA.
Not necessarily after what’s it worth, just if anyone knows the car, cheers

since learnt from dealer that it’s had coolant issues, like gonesky, not good as it’s not air cooled

Perhaps Merv's was underpriced?

[1q2w3e4r]

Dunno?  160 for a manual?  I wouldn't worry so much about what you're paying if you're planning on keeping long term, just buy it, drive it, enjoy it.  Porsche made ~20,000 of them, they aren't collectable. 

I'd just get a PPI done and find one with good service history, they are by all accounts pretty bullet proof things.  

[mc968cs]

I’d guess 130-150 at the moment for a 996 tt manual. 

[smit2100]

2 hours ago, mc968cs said:

I’d guess 130-150 at the moment for a 996 tt manual. 

Q1^  i'd guess thats a wishful  buyers range and reckon be waiting for a while .  Auto perhaps but need to add another 20k to that range for a manual me thinks

The market is at a 6 year peak me thinks.eg bottom of cycle  to peak .  Eg 6 years ago  a few outlier  turbo manuals in good nick  for   sub 6 figures with an eft ( ex on road/ garaged cost) vs much easier to  pick up a  996 gt3 all in  fully garaged for  under 6 figures.  Manuals sat at around 120 to 140k from 2017 to covid and reckon 30k covid tax with the peak around now ( lack of sellers)

Off topic, but been keenly following another german mark thats slighly newer  over a series 2 996  turbo that has in my  view the best bang car  manual gearbox of a certain type and the price has tracked nearly exactly the same.  Eg absolute peach of an outlier precovid avaiable $ 115k but now  circa 170-180k if they come up

Its all relative in terms of what you  might lose.  I would gauge by change over price.  Eg for me 40k  headline changeover price had me thinking thats a  possible  p car land scratch to itch     Eg series 2 996 turbo to series 1 997 gt3. Selling my turbo with 40k extra cash aint getting me into a series 1  997gt3 anytime soon me think of li kje to like condition of cars .  So is the 996t undervalued and 997 gt3 overpriced  or both overpriced.  

6 years ago best bang for buck car on the market me thought with an * ( need to do a few tweaks to transform the car)  was a 996 turbo.  eg way under rated.

Q3 3  Boosted cars and prestine original factory conditioned / lightly beaten on   rubber thats circa 20 years old are a dictomy to me.  Eg rubber boost and vcaccum lines, tranny engine mounts, aging sensors,brittle cooling tanks  deterioraye over tinand if you are unlucky, one of epoxied cooling pipes  could leak/ do a dumo  and it motor drop and address all 7 in let pipes.  A boost leak check is woeth doing.  

i know you did't want any advice on buying a turbo but have you driven a  stock one compared to a tweaked one that is well sorted  back to back.  The overall  difference  behind the wheel for ones with a  3rd  pedal is quite staggering especially if you turn off the only driver aid of that vintage car.

 

[mc968cs]

14 minutes ago, smit2100 said:

Q1^  i'd guess thats a wishful  buyers range and reckon be waiting for a while .  Auto perhaps but need to add another 20k to that range for a manual me thinks

The market is at a 6 year peak me thinks.eg bottom of cycle  to peak .  Eg  a few outlier  turbo manuals in good nick  for   sub 6 figures with an eft ( ex on road/ garaged cost) vs much easier to  pick up a  996 gt3 all in  fully garaged for  under 6 figures.

Q2

Its all relative in terms of what you  might lose.

I  would rather use change over price differentials. 

6 years ago best bang for buck car on the market me thought with an * ( need to do a few tweaks to transform the car)  eg way under rated.

3  Boosted cars and prestine original factory conditioned / lightly beaten on   rubber thats circa 20 years old are a dictomy to me.  Eg rubber boost and vcaccum lines, tranny engine mounts, aging sensors,brittle cooling tanks  deterioraye over tinand if you are unlucky, one of epoxied cooling pipes  could leak/ do a dumo  and it motor drop and address all 7 in let pipes.  A boost leak check is woeth doing.  

i know you did't want any advice on buying a turbo but have you driven a  stock one compared to a tweaked one that is well sorted  back to back.  The overall  difference  behind the wheel for ones with a  3rd  pedal is quite staggering especially if you turn off the only driver aid of that vintage car.

 

Nah. They are asking 170 - 180 and sitting.  Ask looking irrelevant - Markets changed already. It’s absolute max 150 buy now I reckon. Each to their own opinion of course. ( I’m not trying to buy one - did the 996 turbo thing  a long while ago)

[symsy]

996 turbo is good bang for buck in value terms ..and tech terms.. where else you gonna get that kinda reliability , power in the Porsche world for your dollar. I feel turbos are the special one amoung the road going cars .. Im not sure I have seen or heard of a lemon . That gearbox and motor is as hard as nails

Pricing  and it falling , its like discussing if the price of maccas an if it will ever go down again to $5 bucks and if will 98 fuel ever see $1.70 again ...    130k being the low bar I feel

I think everyone pushes onwards and upwards and unless theres some debt stress , im not so sure you will see  a big fall, in a general market. I would love to see one  .. but after. while when a number stays around,  people dont like to rip up money but are always happy to talk about what they worth.

What are they worth of my dollar and wheres great value buying .. well my guess is 130-150..

As for numbers in being thrown around , in this time of funny money ,  I dont think some of the G series , 964 and other cars even GT3 are worth what is being asked ..  All good cars but the prices hyped outta a reality.

If its about smiles .. buy one 

I would love a 997 turbo and when you look at their prices and hype .. then you really would get shocked , i reckon they boosted 30% in the 6 months and the asking has been boosted 50%.  ... 996 less so .. dealers are just trying their luck with desparate fools who dont value their dollar ... its about the value of your dollar to you 

[MFX]

2 hours ago, smit2100 said:

The market is at a 6 year peak me thinks.eg bottom of cycle  to peak .  Eg 6 years ago  a few outlier  turbo manuals in good nick  for   sub 6 figures with an eft ( ex on road/ garaged cost) vs much easier to  pick up a  996 gt3 all in  fully garaged for  under 6 figures.  Manuals sat at around 120 to 140k from 2017 to covid and reckon 30k covid tax with the peak around now ( lack of sellers)

The market back then was left or right of $100k for neat manual coupes (2 mates bought similar cars around that at the time for that money) . GT3's definitely went up first, and I think were an absolute bargain at sub-$100k. 

Turbo's are a quite a niche sub-market as they follow a different branch of the Porsche tree than the GT cars. I think that is why in the past GT2's have sometimes been a tougher sell as they are a blend of the 2 worlds. I think now the Turbo's have corrected to where they should be, particularly with the crazy near Turbo prices people are willing to pay for a C4S (even though it is heavier and slower than a regular C2), just because it looks a bit like a Turbo, but with none of the benefits (Mezger, power, no IMS issues, etc). 

Now everything is up and it may well stay that way, with inflation and new car prices going up, they may not 'correct' as much as some might hope.

[mc968cs]

One thing that’s changing now is buyers who started out looking for the (older)996 and 997 model 911 (such as a recent 996 turbo buyer I know of who didn’t buy a 996 turbo) are also test driving the second hand 991 generation 911 and buying those, as 991 911 owners are upgrading to newer cars and getting out at end of leases etc.

991 911 are now well and truly available for sub$180k, with plenty of good choice avail under $200k and it’s only increasing - and 991 are great cars. Even a base 991 Carrera is a 4.6 second car to 100kmh, so plenty quick.  

Nice sample 991 for sale

[on_booost]

Hmmmm - interesting perspective.

I think everything is up and will stay up. Yesterdays price is not todays price. I mean, we all have stories of the GT3 that we could've bought for $75K or the 993 that we sold for $150K etc.... but that was then - this is now.

A rising tide raises all boats - and if a g series / 964 is over $200K (sometimes $300K ????) then they must all fall together. There is no way a 996 TT willl  ever be sub $100K again, unless 964 and 994 are sub $100K - I just cant see it happening.

In answer to your q's?

1 - A nice 996 TT in manual with good bits / well maintained is easily a $160K car now. 

2 - As above - I cant see you "losing" any $$$ - they'll only go up. You will have to maintain however.... and properly.

3 - As mentioned above - a PPI is mandatory and always buy on condition and not klms/birthplace. They are few and far between - and do not overlook a properly / tastefully  modified one. 

I totally disagree that the person looking for a 996 TT - will cross shop a 991. Even a 991TT. The delta is different in so many ways, not just $$$.

They are just a different animal all together.

 

Edited 27April, 2022 by on_booost
spelling

[BNR34]

On 17/04/2022 at 07:28, Kiwiland7r said:

 

As someone who's followed the GT3 market instead of the 996 turbo market, can anyone give me a tldr of whether this is reasonable buy?

Not necessarily asking for advice on buying a turbo in general, but rather:

1. Where is the 996 turbo market is right now?

2. How much one stands to lose if one buys now (ie - how much are people overpaying at the moment?)

3. Any particular issues one needs to look out for when buying a 996 turbo second hand? (I understand IMS issues don't pertain)

Thanks!

I currently own a 996 Turbo that I bought in 2006. Years ago, I owned a couple of LHD ones that we used to race too. Between me and close friends, we have owned close to 20 Mezger engined 996 and 997 Turbos, GT2s and GT3s. All manual. When I bought mine, I looked at every manual 996 turbo for sale. It took a long time to find a good one, there was a bit of rubbish around even when they were new. I reckon I am very well placed to answer Q3 but will give you my 2c on the others too.

1. Who knows? I have been approached with unprovoked offers for my car a few times. I actually came close to selling it 12 months ago but my new GT3 order got delayed so I decided not to and will probably just give it to my son one day. 12 months ago, I reckon $150-160k was the price for a really good manual in a desirable colour but it is probably more like $160-70k I reckon now. Black, grey and silver with black interior have been the most desirable colours, even when they were newish

2. Again, who knows? I don't know about the autos (the merc 5G is nothing amazing) but I think the manuals are becoming collectible. The 996 Turbo was unloved for a long time, mainly due to the headlights and perceived IMS issues. Ironically, the M96 engined cars which have the properly ugly headlights (ex 4s) and really do have the IMS issue have appreciated a lot. The 996 Turbo is aging well and people are realising there are no IMS issues. Personal opinion but I prefer the aesthetics of the 996TT to the 997. I also disagree that a 991 is a substitute. Completely different car. A good mate has a 992 Carerra S and it is an amazing car - would be my pick if I drove it every day. But I don't and they are no where near as fun to drive. Much more overlap with between a 996 turbo and a later gen manual GT3.

3. These things are super reliable. Not just for the level they were at (no one would ever say that about a ferarri 360 or lambo of the time) but even compared to run of the mill cars of the same age. The engines are bulletproof and the factory management does an incredible job of protecting it. 

Transmission is also rock solid and factory clutches last forever on stock cars if they aren't abused. One trick with the transaxle is to make sure it is filled with Mobil PTX as per factory fill and not generic 75W90. Porsche stopped carrying the Porsche/Mobil branded PTX when the 997s aged a bit. I import it from Mobil in the UK. The synchros work much better with the proper stuff. Most probably have generic 75W90 synthetic by now.

About the only thing you can say is a common fault on these is the hydraulic actuator for the rear wing. They ALL fail at some point. They are rebuildable and there are some aftermarket options but Porsche improved the factory part and seems to have fixed the issue. Mine was changed c. 10 years ago and has been faultless.

People talk about the epoxied coolant fittings failing. This is a fault but it really doesn't seem to affect Australia cars - even ones that are driven hard on the track. This really seems to be mostly a US/Europe problem which I reckon is due to extreme cold temperatures. I do know of one failure in Australia but the car had a US import engine and had done a lot of track work. Neither of our race cars had an issue even though they were US cars but they were imported when they were pretty young.

Other than that, just the usual stuff. Australian delivered much more preferable to anything else. As few owners as possible, know the history. Don't be afraid if it has been maintained by an independent....they probably take more care than the dealers and there is nothing complicated on these cars.

[hugh]

3 hours ago, mc968cs said:

One thing that’s changing now is buyers who started out looking for the (older)996 and 997 model 911 (such as a recent 996 turbo buyer I know of who didn’t buy a 996 turbo) are also test driving the second hand 991 generation 911 and buying those, as 991 911 owners are upgrading to newer cars and getting out at end of leases etc.

991 911 are now well and truly available for sub$180k, with plenty of good choice avail under $200k and it’s only increasing - and 991 are great cars. Even a base 991 Carrera is a 4.6 second car to 100kmh, so plenty quick.  

Nice sample 991 for sale

I'd agree with this. 

To me, the turbo's sweet spot is as a road car. A 991 Carrera is a compelling comparison. Long term hold the 996/997 turbo (especially in a manual) are unlikely to depreciate, however, if it's a daily a 991S PDK at circa 160-180 would be pretty hard to beat. 

[Sov]

On 17/04/2022 at 12:07, 1q2w3e4r said:

Porsche made ~20,000 of them, they aren't collectable.

Porsche also made ~15,800 991 GT3's. The number built doesn't stop them from being desirable.

As a side, ~285 996 Turbo's were delivered new to the Australian market. Not a huge number.

22 hours ago, MFX said:

Now everything is up and it may well stay that way, with inflation and new car prices going up, they may not 'correct' as much as some might hope.

There will be a "more delays expected" announcement by Porsche in the coming week/s. Expect the used car market to have another leg up as dealers scramble to buy (and in some instances, re-buy) late model and/or desirable cars to fill their showrooms.

7 hours ago, BNR34 said:

About the only thing you can say is a common fault on these is the hydraulic actuator for the rear wing. They ALL fail at some point. They are rebuildable and there are some aftermarket options but Porsche improved the factory part and seems to have fixed the issue. Mine was changed c. 10 years ago and has been faultless.

Mine failed also in 2014 and was rebuilt by the dealer at a cost of ~$2700. I understand their is cheaper options now (probably then also).

[1q2w3e4r]

59 minutes ago, the_sovereign_man said:

Porsche also made ~15,800 991 GT3's. The number built doesn't stop them from being desirable.

As a side, ~285 996 Turbo's were delivered new to the Australian market. Not a huge number.

No, but it has a bearing on prices.

Any of the 996/997 GT cars, or say the 996 Turbo S' were produced in much smaller numbers - makes more sense for price stability, or rises on those to me than turbos 

[Boosh]

50 minutes ago, 1q2w3e4r said:

No, but it has a bearing on prices.

Any of the 996/997 GT cars, or say the 996 Turbo S' were produced in much smaller numbers - makes more sense for price stability, or rises on those to me than turbos 

The smaller run numbers like the turbo S are of course going to be more desirable. Manual coupes will be the same but 20k cars is not a large number. Unless I am mistaken only 20k 930s were built and they are fetching 300k now.

Many people just dream about owning a 911 Turbo and that sentiment is what will command the price premium. This is also why I disagree turbo owners would 'upgrade' to a 991. Maybe a GT3 or another turbo, but not a base.

I think the 996 will only grow in appeal. The turbos lag and 'rawness' will keep it desirable.

[BNR34]

Every other model of 911 turbo has retained value/appreciated more than the anything else but the GT cars. I don't see why the 996 will be any different. I reckon it got caught up in the IMS concern but everyone has worked that out.

 

The base 911models do okay when they get old enough to make good ones scarce but IMO the price history of the base 964/993/996/997 is a good indication of where 991 base prices will go...and it isn't up in the near term (once supply chain issues subside and liquidity starts getting pulled from the system to undo all the money the world has printed).

 

I'm  not sure production numbers matter that much. It was hard enough to find a good manual 996 turbo in a desireable colour when they were 3-4 years old. I looked at every one that came up and it took me 18 months to find a good one.

 

RE the 20k globally...the majority would be LHD and sold in markets where cars get looked after a lot less than here on average. No idea on the auto/manual split but the autos seem to turn over much much faster. Even in the US, manuals aren't that easy to find.

 

As an aside...if I recall, almost 15k R34 GTRs were produced. And...they are ALL RHD...and they are ALL manual. Look at what they are worth now. They weren't very expensive new either. Thwy are pretty fragile too. I'm glad I kept one.

[Sov]

13 hours ago, Boosh said:

This is also why I disagree turbo owners would 'upgrade' to a 991. Maybe a GT3 or another turbo, but not a base.

Totally agree. There's absolutely zero chance I would "upgrade" to a base model 991. In my mind that is a major downgrade, not an upgrade.

[Kiwiland7r]

Many thanks for all your answers!

Where I'm ultimately going with this are with two cars:

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2003-porsche-911-turbo-996-auto-awd-my04/SSE-AD-11937310/?Cr=3

And the Blue 996 turbo at AutoHaus (140K, 70Km)

https://autohaushamilton.com.au/porsche-sales/porsches-for-sale

Anyone have strong opinions on which one is the better buy? Both cars are within budget, the question is more about which will hold its value long term (compared to asking price) and what's would be considered a good price for the two cars.

My amateur two cents suggest to me that the silver 996 is a better car, but at what price would it be a really good buy? The blue car seems "underpriced" (?). Is that because it's imported? Or because it's an auto? Or something I'm missing entirely?

[Sov]

49 minutes ago, Kiwiland7r said:

My amateur two cents suggest to me that the silver 996 is a better car, but at what price would it be a really good buy? The blue car seems "underpriced" (?). Is that because it's imported? Or because it's a manual? Or something I'm missing entirely?

They're both autos?

The difference in price would just be the combination of the difference in kms (blue 70kms, silver 24kms), colour (silver being more popular), import vs Australian delivered, and perhaps the private seller pricing for a negotiation vs the dealer pricing to sell.

In terms of resale, an Australian car will always command a higher price to an import (I'm not saying that is "right", it just does) and the classic Silver over black will always be desirable because of the 'car on the wall poster' nostalgia. 

If it were me, I'd not be looking at either of them, I'd be buying a manual.

[911virgin]

9 hours ago, the_sovereign_man said:

Totally agree. There's absolutely zero chance I would "upgrade" to a base model 991. In my mind that is a major downgrade, not an upgrade.

Agree, majority of 911- philes would agree a turbo 996 is far more collectible in the future than a base 991 Carrera. . .. how many of these were made?

991s are so terribly over priced and over valued currently

[Sov]

5 minutes ago, 911virgin said:

Agree, majority of 911- philes would agree a turbo 996 is far more collectible in the future than a base 991 Carrera. . .. how many of these were made?

The 991 was the highest volume of any Porsche to date. Something like quarter of a million units worldwide from memory.

[MFX]

4 hours ago, Kiwiland7r said:

Many thanks for all your answers!

Where I'm ultimately going with this are with two cars:

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2003-porsche-911-turbo-996-auto-awd-my04/SSE-AD-11937310/?Cr=3

And the Blue 996 turbo at AutoHaus (140K, 70Km)

https://autohaushamilton.com.au/porsche-sales/porsches-for-sale

Anyone have strong opinions on which one is the better buy? Both cars are within budget, the question is more about which will hold its value long term (compared to asking price) and what's would be considered a good price for the two cars.

My amateur two cents suggest to me that the silver 996 is a better car, but at what price would it be a really good buy? The blue car seems "underpriced" (?). Is that because it's imported? Or because it's an auto? Or something I'm missing entirely?

Both cars seem overpriced to me. Like it or not, in the Porsche world the most expensive version of a model when new is the Auto, cab, the cheapest is the manual coupe. In the second hand market the reverse is true. Generally in the second hand market, an auto is normally around 20% or so less than the manual, and an import is generally also around another 20% discount. This is all approximations but is not far off the mark. If the current market is somewhere around the + or - $160k mark for reasonable manual, then both of those cars seem pretty high to me. As for what will hold it's value, if you buy any Porsche at a good market price and, it generally will still go up as much as the rest percentage wise. the 20% margins will remain, just at a higher or lower price point.

I will say, that after being in both the auto and manual 996 turbos, the auto just lacks the visceral emotion. The auto is fine but not overly exciting, the manual is a weapon.