991 GT3 Market watch

[reggiegums]

8 hours ago, MFX said:

Basically their fix is that they just added more hardening on the cams and followers. That will delay the issue, but doesn't correct the original oiling problem.

Interesting...... I read that it "fixed" the problem but you might be right in that its merely delaying the issue. Does this mean that the design was changed in the 991.2?

[MFX]

Just now, reggiegums said:

Interesting...... I read that it "fixed" the problem but you might be right in that its merely delaying the issue. Does this mean that the design was changed in the 991.2?

I am just going from what I have seen. Neil at Performance Developments has seen a few blown up and had a brand new set of replacement heads on the bench and the oil delivery was all the same. The issue is that the hydraulic finger followers push hard against the cam the whole time, so there is basically no room for the oil to get between. The other big issue, is that basically the oil gets sprayed up onto the lower cam, and the engine just relies on the bottom cam flicking oil up to to upper cam. There is no oiling for the top cam. That is why the first lot of engines particularly, were wearing out in a couple of hundred kms. Adding extra hardening to the parts will make it tougher and last longer, but the design is flawed.

[SS 3]

1 hour ago, MFX said:

I am just going from what I have seen. Neil at Performance Developments has seen a few blown up and had a brand new set of replacement heads on the bench and the oil delivery was all the same. The issue is that the hydraulic finger followers push hard against the cam the whole time, so there is basically no room for the oil to get between. The other big issue, is that basically the oil gets sprayed up onto the lower cam, and the engine just relies on the bottom cam flicking oil up to to upper cam. There is no oiling for the top cam. That is why the first lot of engines particularly, were wearing out in a couple of hundred kms. Adding extra hardening to the parts will make it tougher and last longer, but the design is flawed.

Well said that was my understanding as well;

Question given the 991.2 has a brand new engine design do you know how they have engineered this particular area of the new engine ?

[MFX]

6 minutes ago, Scott SS964 said:

Well said that was my understanding as well;

Question given the 991.2 has a brand new engine design do you know how they have engineered this particular area of the new engine ?

I have no idea. I was just at Performance Developments when Neil was going through the development for the fix, which is very elaborate. You need to actually send the heads to them and it involves machining new oil galleries into the heads, and he has designed and produced new finger followers.

[StevepGT3]

2 hours ago, MFX said:

I have no idea. I was just at Performance Developments when Neil was going through the development for the fix, which is very elaborate. You need to actually send the heads to them and it involves machining new oil galleries into the heads, and he has designed and produced new finger followers.

One thing that has been done with the .2 engine  is replacing the hydraulic valve adjusters with a fixed valve clearance, meaning no shim adjustment  even. In the “ unlikely “ event that adjustment may be necessary, a range of followers will be available to make the necessary adjustments. Doesn’t sound cheap or convenient to me.

[DJM]

Good comparison video.  Nothing new in his conclusions but it was good to see the clear difference in the RS as soon as he got on track.  So GT3 manual is best for weekend road driving, a GT3 RS PDK is better if track driving is your thing with GT2 RS reserved for crazy bastards.  That's settled then 😀 

 

[hugh]

1 hour ago, DJM said:

Good comparison video.  Nothing new in his conclusions but it was good to see the clear difference in the RS as soon as he got on track.  So GT3 manual is best for weekend road driving, a GT3 RS PDK is better if track driving is your thing with GT2 RS reserved for crazy bastards.  That's settled then 😀 

 

I struggle to see where you can really enjoy a GT3 on a public road without rolling the dice.

They are essentially a track car that you can drive too and from the track and for whatever reason Porsche seem to be the only manufacturer that can do this properly. PDK RS it is for you sir. 

[NBTBRV8]

29 minutes ago, hugh said:

I struggle to see where you can really enjoy a GT3 on a public road without rolling the dice.

 

Depends where you live/drive.  The GT3 suits my lifestyle more than the RS, it is great at putting a foot in all camps.

[hugh]

55 minutes ago, NBTBRV8 said:

Depends on how fast you live/drive.  

[DJM]

3 hours ago, hugh said:

 PDK RS it is for you sir. 

Yeah, probably.  A 2016 991.1 RS is still low 3s though.  Did they share the 991.1 GT3 engine issues?

It's easy to assume an RS is just a lairy GT3 but it does seem there is more track substance to it.  But at $500k for a 991.2 RS with Weissach pack I suspect more of them are driven to coffee to pose in rather than to the track.  

$554k........😳

2019 Porsche 911 GT3 RS 991 Auto MY19

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2019-Porsche-911-GT3-RS-991-Auto-MY19/OAG-AD-17127454

3 hours ago, hugh said:

I struggle to see where you can really enjoy a GT3 on a public road without rolling the dice.

Yep having owned a GT4 & GT2 manual and driven a GT3 PDK I can see how manual is deemed "more accessible" and so a bit more engaging for a weekend drive.  But I agree they are all too fast to really get up it and enjoy legally/safely on the road.  

[wilson59]

2 hours ago, DJM said:

Yeah, probably.  A 2016 991.1 RS is still low 3s though.  Did they share the 991.1 GT3 engine issues?

It's easy to assume an RS is just a lairy GT3 but it does seem there is more track substance to it.  But at $500k for a 991.2 RS with Weissach pack I suspect more of them are driven to coffee to pose in rather than to the track.  

$554k........😳

2019 Porsche 911 GT3 RS 991 Auto MY19

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2019-Porsche-911-GT3-RS-991-Auto-MY19/OAG-AD-17127454

Yep having owned a GT4 & GT2 manual and driven a GT3 PDK I can see how manual is deemed "more accessible" and so a bit more engaging for a weekend drive.  But I agree they are all too fast to really get up it and enjoy legally/safely on the road.  

I am also interested to know if the 991.1 RS had the same engine  issues as the GT3 

I will be looking for a new car and my budget can either get me into a 991.1 RS or a 991.2 GT3 

Anyone know ? 

[1q2w3e4r]

Engine issues are limited to GT3.  GT3RS and 911R's aren't impacted.

I'd get an RS, because and RS will always be an RS though I'd use it for weekend runs and track days.  Perfect scenario would be a new 2/RS when prices bottom in 3-4 years

[DJM]

19 minutes ago, 1q2w3e4r said:

Engine issues are limited to GT3.  GT3RS and 911R's aren't impacted.

I'd get an RS, because and RS will always be an RS though I'd use it for weekend runs and track days.  Perfect scenario would be a new 2/RS when prices bottom in 3-4 years

So the obvious question, where's the bottom for 991.1 and 991.2 RS $ wise.  

Need the 992 to be a big step forward so 991s are "inferior" and next to worthless.😂

[wilson59]

8 minutes ago, DJM said:

So the obvious question, where's the bottom for 991.1 and 991.2 RS $ wise.  

Need the 992 to be a big step forward so 991s are "inferior" and next to worthless.😂

Yes now your talking . I don’t need a car in a hurry . Anyone with a crystal ball that says I should wait a while before purchasing in case they drop in price a little 

[Jimmy]

30 minutes ago, 1q2w3e4r said:

Engine issues are limited to GT3.  GT3RS and 911R's aren't impacted.

I'd get an RS, because and RS will always be an RS though I'd use it for weekend runs and track days.  Perfect scenario would be a new 2/RS when prices bottom in 3-4 years

Oh the RS and R are affected, 

They're the same engine design, the difference is they rev to 8800 instead of 9k.

It's all kept quiet but do a search, you'll find some of them. 

[MFX]

52 minutes ago, 1q2w3e4r said:

Engine issues are limited to GT3.  GT3RS and 911R's aren't impacted.

I'd get an RS, because and RS will always be an RS though I'd use it for weekend runs and track days.  Perfect scenario would be a new 2/RS when prices bottom in 3-4 years

I was under the impression that the RS and the R's were also effected?

[NBTBRV8]

53 minutes ago, 1q2w3e4r said:

Engine issues are limited to GT3.  GT3RS and 911R's aren't impacted.

I'd get an RS, because and RS will always be an RS though I'd use it for weekend runs and track days.  Perfect scenario would be a new 2/RS when prices bottom in 3-4 years

You do realise that the RS' have the G series motor, the same as fitted to the GT3 that you are bagging out consistently?

[1q2w3e4r]

Err.  The engine issues aren't being attributed to the GT3 RS and 911 R per my post   I'm sure there's been failures, they have made circa 4000+ of them - there's plenty of information on Rennlist and on the whole GT3 saga, the summary is it isn't a RS issue.

The engines while the same have differences, particularly with the finger followers which was the issue with the GT3, which is why the issues aren't attributed to the RS and R.  If it was, seems pretty odd that Porsche wouldn't warranty the R or 3/RS but would offer a 10 year engine warranty on the GT3.

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-and-911r/1096577-another-gt3-rs-engine-failure-3.html

Informative thread on Porsche coming to the party with the GT3 engine.

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-and-911r/1005204-991-1-gt3-cog-our-meeting-with-pcna-pag-plus-porsche-s-official-announcement.html

See post 1 of the above link

Dr. Walliser explained that Porsche had to develop new engine tests to recreate these patterns. With new baseline testing in place, Porsche was able to reproduce and diagnose the issue, and develop new finger followers and camshafts using revised manufacturing processes and specifications. Dr. Walliser presented test results and images that demonstrate the effectiveness of the new parts. After more than double the test hours of engines that failed, the new finger followers looked as though they were new in comparative photos. In fact, we initially thought they were new. We saw no visible wear.

What about the 991.1 GT3 RS and 911 R? While these engines share a similar architecture with the GT3, according to Dr. Walliser these models are not affected. He explained that there are many differences between the GT3 and R/RS engines. This seems to be consistent with our observations, as there are no known reports of issues with these models.

[Redracn]

6 hours ago, wilson59 said:

I am also interested to know if the 991.1 RS had the same engine  issues as the GT3 

I will be looking for a new car and my budget can either get me into a 991.1 RS or a 991.2 GT3 

Anyone know ? 

Lower rev limit may help with the cam issue. Otherwise I don't believe the cam gear design is any different other than the later manufacture than GT3 means they have already applied the  DLC (Diamond Like Coating) coatings as do current GT3 warranty replacements. 

[NBTBRV8]

8 hours ago, Redracn said:

Lower rev limit may help with the cam issue. Otherwise I don't believe the cam gear design is any different other than the later manufacture than GT3 means they have already applied the  DLC (Diamond Like Coating) coatings as do current GT3 warranty replacements. 

I agree.  The G series motor which the RS runs is the same as the 3.  It is the E and 6 series motors that you need to worry about more.  Let's not forget that you can continue with the extended warranty for 15 years too.

[SS 3]

12 hours ago, 1q2w3e4r said:

He explained that there are many differences between the GT3 and R/RS engines. This seems to be consistent with our observations, as there are no known reports of issues with these models.

991.1 GT3 engine V RS engine -----

I would be clarifying what the many differences are here that he talks about here I have not been able to identify these to date other than the rev limit being 200 RPM lower.

2 hours ago, NBTBRV8 said:

Let's not forget that you can continue with the extended warranty for 15 years too.

It would be good to clarify if this general warranty extension includes the updated engine warranty that was extended to 10 years. My understanding is that they are different.......I am not sure though.

[sleazius]

G series motors have blown up repeatedly. It's the track pigs that are affected. That is why Porsche offered the 10 years. Everyone has gone quiet on Rennlist because of the service they are getting but once these cars go out of warranty it'll be on for young and old again. They're still blowing motors to this day.

RS is affected but at a much lower rate (probably 1% of the GT3) because of the 200 less rpm, and the change of a few parts. The architecture is identical though.

Given what I know I still plan on rolling the dice with an RS cause to me the small chance is worth the risk. For others it won't be.

GT3.1, get out at 8-9 years. RS roll the dice. Thats my opinion anyway.

[edgy]

10 hours ago, sleazius said:

RS roll the dice. Thats my opinion anyway

I am going to do this once they become reasonable money... 991.1 RS then straight to the track to roll dice 🎲, just hope I don’t roll any ‘craps numbers’ 

[NBTBRV8]

I think I am getting close to deciding to trade mine in, last calls for genuine expressions of interest.   2015, guards, touring,  28km fitted with the G series motor.

[Lucky Phil]

@NBTBRV8 I will be really interested (if you trade it) to know what a dealers offers you.  I am wondering how the dealers treat the 991.1 cars based on all the negative publicity they are receiving because of the engine.