991 GT3 Market watch

[SS 3]

3 hours ago, DD911 said:

General question here for the brains trust: It seems with the value freight train that is the 996/997 GT3s the new entry level GT3 is now the 991.1. Are the engines that much of a grenade as reported? Are there any permanent fixes for these motors as per an IMS for 996's. In my 911 ownership I have had 3 so called grenades - 2 x 2.7's & a 996.2  - neither of which detonated, enjoyed the crap out of for a number of years, racked up more miles than I was supposed too, cost me less to maintain than I thought & lost far less on than any other cars I've had. As an analogue man my whole Porsche life my first drive in a 991.1 GT3 over the weekend was mind blowing - I even enjoyed the PDK (which I said I'd never own without ever driving one). Can the 10 year warranty be extended for 5 years or is that a myth? Any opinions would be appreciated.

 

I posted some information on this issue in this thread on the 28th of April this year. 
Its all about evaluating risk at the end of the day as you say with your 2.7 and 996.

[sleazius]

G series can still grenade under the right motivation, it is much harder to do it though than the original E and F series. All 991.1 GT3 motors have the same design flaw, which leads to insufficient lubrication. Get on Rennlist, there are several people there who went through 3 motors on the track.

Part of the 'fix' was capping the revs to 8800 rpm rather than 9000 in the RS. That said it doesn't actually fix the problem, just makes the design fault take longer to grenade your engine.

The original question was 'will there be an after market fix ala IMS' and the answer is yes, but at what cost? You're probably better off just crating a 991.2 engine if it fits.

 

[1q2w3e4r]

6 hours ago, DD911 said:

General question here for the brains trust: It seems with the value freight train that is the 996/997 GT3s the new entry level GT3 is now the 991.1. Are the engines that much of a grenade as reported? Are there any permanent fixes for these motors as per an IMS for 996's. In my 911 ownership I have had 3 so called grenades - 2 x 2.7's & a 996.2  - neither of which detonated, enjoyed the crap out of for a number of years, racked up more miles than I was supposed too, cost me less to maintain than I thought & lost far less on than any other cars I've had. As an analogue man my whole Porsche life my first drive in a 991.1 GT3 over the weekend was mind blowing - I even enjoyed the PDK (which I said I'd never own without ever driving one). Can the 10 year warranty be extended for 5 years or is that a myth? Any opinions would be appreciated.

 

There is no IMS issue withe 996/7 GT cars and turbos #Mezger

the 991.1s will end up as orphans, not having the Mezger and not having the cup engine of the .2s.  Doesn't mean they aren't a good proposition, at the right price.

[wilson59]

2 hours ago, sleazius said:

G series can still grenade under the right motivation, it is much harder to do it though than the original E and F series. All 991.1 GT3 motors have the same design flaw, which leads to insufficient lubrication. Get on Rennlist, there are several people there who went through 3 motors on the track.

Part of the 'fix' was capping the revs to 8800 rpm rather than 9000 in the RS. That said it doesn't actually fix the problem, just makes the design fault take longer to grenade your engine.

The original question was 'will there be an after market fix ala IMS' and the answer is yes, but at what cost? You're probably better off just crating a 991.2 engine if it fits.

 

Don’t believe they fit 

[WGA]

The engine in my 991.1 GT3 threw the notorious CEL at 210kph through Blanchimont at Spa. Almost crashed as I was momentarily distracted by the dashboard message. At the time, it was not a known widespread problem (I was one of the first) so I simply took the car into the dealer the next day for a check. After 3-4 days they told me that the engine would need to be replaced....and it would cost me $30,000 euro because it happened on track. After a bit of a tussle with PAG, they finally agreed to do a top end rebuild with all the new DLC coated parts (lifters, cam lobes, etc) and a newly designed head under warranty. So I ended up with a G Series engine via a rebuild rather than a full engine replacement. Little did I know that it would go on to be a global issue it subsequently became.

I had the car for another year or so and did multiple track days on the engine. I eventually sold it to chap who had it for another couple of years and, AFAIK, the car has run flawlessly without any further engine issues to this very day.

Over the following years, I met many 991.1 GT3 owners who had their engines replaced and, AFAIK, not one had a repeat occurrence. I also met many 991.1 owners who had later builds who got the G series engines  as part of the build and not one of those had a problem. Similarly, none of the 991.1 GT3 RS owners that I knew ever had the CEL problem. A couple had engine replacements but not for the same problem as the 991.1. They were completely different random issues. Indeed, the 991.1 GT3 RS engine overall is very reliable. 

[on_booost]

1 hour ago, 1q2w3e4r said:

There is no IMS issue withe 996/7 GT cars and turbos #Mezger

the 991.1s will end up as orphans, not having the Mezger and not having the cup engine of the .2s.  Doesn't mean they aren't a good proposition, at the right price.

Yup to a certain degree - but what is the right price? Imagine getting a discount of 10-20% (so lets say $50K based upon the current listing) and then grenading it and having to bear the $80K + repair bill and then still having an orphaned car.....? OUCH!

6 hours ago, NBTBRV8 said:

A car with an extended warranty can not be sold with that warranty still in place if they aren't an approved Porsche dealer, if PCA find out the extended warranty will be cancelled.

The 10 motor warranty stays with the car regardless of who sells it and it is from the first registered date and does not reset if a new motor is fitted.

The extended warranty covers the full drive line except for consumables such as the clutch and pressure plate and flywheel (don't ask me how I know).  It doesn't cover fluids, filters or brake pads and rotors, nor shockers.

My understanding differs on the transferable warranty, but i'm probably wrong, its been a while for me.

An extended warranty - as opposed to a drivetrain warranty - covers everything - interior bits, electrical etc. so it was just a stopgap measure by Porsche to appease upset owners?

Still - better than nothing - but would you want to own one out of warranty? No different to a 996 IMS issue really?

(ok maybe thats a stretch... 😂)

[sleazius]

13 minutes ago, WGA said:

The engine in my 991.1 GT3 threw the notorious CEL at 210kph through Blanchimont at Spa. Almost crashed as I was momentarily distracted by the dashboard message. At the time, it was not a known widespread problem (I was one of the first) so I simply took the car into the dealer the next day for a check. After 3-4 days they told me that the engine would need to be replaced....and it would cost me $30,000 euro because it happened on track. After a bit of a tussle with PAG, they finally agreed to do a top end rebuild with all the new DLC coated parts (lifters, cam lobes, etc) and a newly designed head under warranty. So I ended up with a G Series engine via a rebuild rather than a full engine replacement. Little did I know that it would go on to be a global issue it subsequently became.

I had the car for another year or so and did multiple track days on the engine. I eventually sold it to chap who had it for another couple of years and, AFAIK, the car has run flawlessly without any further engine issues to this very day.

Over the following years, I met many 991.1 GT3 owners who had their engines replaced and, AFAIK, not one had a repeat occurrence. I also met many 991.1 owners who had later builds who got the G series engines  as part of the build and not one of those had a problem. Similarly, none of the 991.1 GT3 RS owners that I knew ever had the CEL problem. A couple had engine replacements but not for the same problem as the 991.1. They were completely different random issues. Indeed, the 991.1 GT3 RS engine overall is very reliable. 

Which is interesting because there are several privateers on rennlist who claim the opposite. Admittedly putting serious track miles on the g series engines.

Far easier to just save the difference for a 997 or a 991.2 rather than risk it IMO.

 

[wilson59]

1 minute ago, sleazius said:

Which is interesting because there are several privateers on rennlist who claim the opposite. Admittedly putting serious track miles on the g series engines.

Far easier to just save the difference for a 997 or a 991.2 rather than risk it IMO.

 

It’s the AstraZeneca of GT3 donks 

[on_booost]

29 minutes ago, sleazius said:

Far easier to just save the difference for a 997 or a 991.2 rather than risk it IMO.

I agree with this comment = 100%

What is the consensus on pricing of above cars when the new 992 and 992 RS start being delivered ?

And in turn will the 991.1 GT3  just be further orphaned? 

 

[spiller]

40 minutes ago, on_booost said:

I agree with this comment = 100%

What is the consensus on pricing of above cars when the new 992 and 992 RS start being delivered ?

And in turn will the 991.1 GT3  just be further orphaned? 

 

I can’t see 992 affecting the prices of 997 or 996 as they’re almost different markets these days. It will certainly put downward pressure on 991.2s and 1.1s will suffer even more. It’s not inconceivable to see 1.2s back to sub 280K again pretty soon and I can imagine the 1.1s will dip below 200K soon enough (which is where some of them were before this covid madness).

I have heard about 991.1 RS engine failures on track also. I would just stay away from the 1.1 generation all together. AstraZeneca, Cadbury, Lego, whatever you want to call it - seriously, I wouldn’t want that lurking in the back of my mind with 200-300K tipped into a machine.

[cafe_racer]

You say they are different markets. But downward pressure on the 991.1/.2’s will inevitably impact 997 then 996 gt3 prices. If a 991.2 gets back to sun $280k I can’t see too many people stumping up $250k for a 997.1 or $320k for a 997.2. 

[spiller]

11 minutes ago, cafe_racer said:

You say they are different markers. But downward pressure on the 991.1/.2’s will inevitably impact 997 then 996 gt3 prices. If a 991.2 gets back to sun $280k I can’t see too many people stumping up $250k for a 997.1 or $320k for a 997.2. 

Maybe I’ll be wrong. I don’t think I will be though. Some like the old, some like the new, some like both. There’s something out there for everyone and whilst some people will cross shop based on price, there are few of the mezger cars with lots of demand from buyers. Comparatively 991s are plentiful.

[hugh]

38 minutes ago, spiller said:

I have heard about 991.1 RS engine failures on track also. 

I’ve seen 2 happen first hand, both at track days. Seeing a 400-500k + car lunch its self isn’t pretty. Devastating for the owners. 
 

I also agree 996/7 market is a different one to a 991 market. Not to dissimilar to comparing early AC value to later model 911’s. Chalk & cheese. 

[MFX]

9 hours ago, DD911 said:

So looking at that - It has 2 years to run on its' original engine warranty with potential for a 5 year extension. Miles are higher than most but is a Clubsport with buckets, front lift so the options I'd want. My consideration is the next car in the queue is $20k more (996.2) & $100k+ off for a modern/digital 991.2.  Is there any solution to permanently fix these engines - like what does Porsche do to them or do they just replace them with completely different later units when they let go or get that high rev miss? Could you really enjoy this car with the peace of mind of a Porsche warranty for the next 7 years then put some cash into engine upgrades?

I have seen Porsche's 'fix' open on a bench. The issue is an inherent design flaw. It basically does not get enough oil to the top cams and the cams/finger followers wear out. Porsche's 'fix' is basically just adding a harder coating to the followers and cams, but does not address the oiling issue. Basically the 'fixed' engines will last a bit longer before they wear out. 

Performance Developments in the US developed a fix for these engines which includes new finger followers, and oil fixes, but it is pricey and you have to actually send the engine to them to get done. 

There is a reason 991.1's look like such a bargain in the GT3 market

[on_booost]

58 minutes ago, cafe_racer said:

You say they are different markets. But downward pressure on the 991.1/.2’s will inevitably impact 997 then 996 gt3 prices. If a 991.2 gets back to sun $280k I can’t see too many people stumping up $250k for a 997.1 or $320k for a 997.2. 

Nah - seen the price of a 964 Turbo these days?????

49 minutes ago, spiller said:

Maybe I’ll be wrong. I don’t think I will be though. Some like the old, some like the new, some like both. There’s something out there for everyone and whilst some people will cross shop based on price, there are few of the mezger cars with lots of demand from buyers. Comparatively 991s are plentiful.

This 100% - what about a non turbo 993 selling for $300K?

Some are purists/enthusiasts - some want he latest and greatest - and therefore a commodity?

19 minutes ago, hugh said:

I’ve seen 2 happen first hand, both at track days. Seeing a 400-500k + car lunch its self isn’t pretty. Devastating for the owners. 
 

I also agree 996/7 market is a different one to a 991 market. Not to dissimilar to comparing early AC value to later model 911’s. Chalk & cheese. 

Ive been to the track once or twice - ive heard of owners balling the whole car up - and tossing it in the trash - at that point and engine rebuild would be a nice easy repair...... On the other hand - ever driven a non P-car built for the track? Try blowing up a built $50 or $60K blown V8 or Skyline donk......

991 market is commodity driven - they will have to be impacted by the 992 - the 996/7 market will look around and go... what? yeah so? and keep rising....

[spiller]

46 minutes ago, hugh said:

I’ve seen 2 happen first hand, both at track days. Seeing a 400-500k + car lunch its self isn’t pretty. Devastating for the owners. 
 

I also agree 996/7 market is a different one to a 991 market. Not to dissimilar to comparing early AC value to later model 911’s. Chalk & cheese. 

That is some scary shit. It’s a real shame these cars suffer from such an inherent design flaw with catastrophic consequences. Especially considering GT3s are otherwise widely regarded as the bulletproof track tool of choice. Seemingly too, the issue is much more prevalent than the overly discussed IMS failures or bore scoring for that matter.  A strange time for Porsche in that era, chocolate engines, PDK only “because we couldn’t afford to develop a manual gearbox”. You have to wonder WTF they were they thinking with that car. Big Corp are always bean counting, I get that, but it wasn’t as if they were strapped for cash. It will be fantastic if and when the aftermarket can devise a solution that makes them a reliable option again. 

[sleazius]

7 hours ago, spiller said:

 It will be fantastic if and when the aftermarket can devise a solution that makes them a reliable option again. 

There have been a few different fixes developed, at least one was shelved simply due to the cost of performing it = limited or no demand.

 

9 hours ago, cafe_racer said:

You say they are different markets. But downward pressure on the 991.1/.2’s will inevitably impact 997 then 996 gt3 prices. If a 991.2 gets back to sun $280k I can’t see too many people stumping up $250k for a 997.1 or $320k for a 997.2. 

I honestly just think all this exuberance is interest rate driven. Money is practically free at the moment.

I'd be shocked if we don't see a savage correction in car pricing once interest rates head north - remember when GT3s use to depreciate? 🤣

996, 997, 991, they *should* all get hammered. That doesn't mean they will, just that it is likely under that scenario.

 

[NBTBRV8]

This is a summary of the motors from Rennlist:

The 991.1 3.8 L GT3 engine has had a number of design flaws which were "incrementally" resolved as well documented in these pages. In summary, the various engine designations/issues were as follows:

 

E series = MY14 (E0 con rod bolt issue/fires, E1 was the replacement)

 

F series = MY15 (fixed high rev misfire due to valve train wear issue, inclusions & poor lube)

 

G series = MY16 (similar to MA176 engine from GT3 RS). More oil galleries in head, new oil pump with higher pressure, oil filter, ECU changes to mid range oil pressure. However only engine numbers above G05374 have fixed the DLC (Diamond like carbon) finger follower issue

 

G1 replacement has DLC coat on cam lobes as well (mainly used in RS and R from June16)

 

G6 -- is the final iteration which appears to have resolved all issues.

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-gt2rs-and-911r/1235707-mileage-of-991-1-gt3-engine-failures-4.html

 

When you read the other long Rennlist post it seems the G6 motors aren't showing any signs of failure with heavy track use.  I think the development of the motor issue has tainted the .1 and even if the G6 motor is perfect they will be held in the same regard.

Also the .1 has never been below $200k, mine was the cheapest at $219k right at the start of the pandemic when $230-240k was the norm.

[DJM]

11 minutes ago, NBTBRV8 said:

Also the .1 has never been below $200k, mine was the cheapest at $219k right at the start of the pandemic 

An inglorious trophy to hold……

I thought the white one with cup car front guards and big wing at NickTheodossi would have beaten yours for cheapest 991.1?

seems to me the only reason 991.1s haven’t plummeted is new entrants to the market without all the facts must be buying unknowingly.  If everyone knew, these cars would struggle to find a home and values would be hammered, surely.

when I bought a 991.2 the price delta was only 30-40k, an absolute no brainer.  That seems to have widened a bit but not enough to roll the dice on a 250k 991.1.  Quarter of a mil with a ticking time bomb, no thanks.

[NBTBRV8]

40 minutes ago, DJM said:

An inglorious trophy to hold……

I thought the white one with cup car front guards and big wing at NickTheodossi would have beaten yours for cheapest 991.1?

seems to me the only reason 991.1s haven’t plummeted is new entrants to the market without all the facts must be buying unknowingly.  If everyone knew, these cars would struggle to find a home and values would be hammered, surely.

when I bought a 991.2 the price delta was only 30-40k, an absolute no brainer.  That seems to have widened a bit but not enough to roll the dice on a 250k 991.1.  Quarter of a mil with a ticking time bomb, no thanks.

I seem to generally be lucky in buying high and selling low .  I did price it low because it was "high" km for a GT3 at 29,000 and because the vast majority of buyers are mainland based so when the borders shut I had to price it accordingly.  It was a great car in great condition and wanted for nothing.

The Nick Theodossi car never got to sub $200k and given how the market has reset and the large price differences between the generations the .1 will not be sub $200 in the next three years.  Also you can't compare a car that is a distinct outlier in the market and say that this is a true representation of the market.

I'd say the G6 motor will last the distance given the findings thus far on Rennlist, but as you can see from the iterations of the motor and vitriol on here the .1 has been tarnished by these problems.  Fair play to Porsche though for sticking with the issue and the vast majority of owners haven't been out of pocket.  They are still a great car.

12 hours ago, on_booost said:

Yup to a certain degree - but what is the right price? Imagine getting a discount of 10-20% (so lets say $50K based upon the current listing) and then grenading it and having to bear the $80K + repair bill and then still having an orphaned car.....? OUCH!

My understanding differs on the transferable warranty, but i'm probably wrong, its been a while for me.

An extended warranty - as opposed to a drivetrain warranty - covers everything - interior bits, electrical etc. so it was just a stopgap measure by Porsche to appease upset owners?

Still - better than nothing - but would you want to own one out of warranty? No different to a 996 IMS issue really?

(ok maybe thats a stretch... 😂)

There are two warranties:

The 10 engine warranty from date of first registration stays with the car regardless of who sells it.  It is the motor only, no clutch or drive train.

The Porsche Approved used car warranty as per the link I posted can be extended not past the 15th year since registration and runs parallel to the 10 year engine only warranty and covers everything except for consumables, clutch and flywheel.  It is transferable by private sale with balance of its policy duration left.  If sold by an official Porsche dealer they must put 12 months on it ON TOP of any warranty duration left the previous owner had (if it still has some).  This warranty can not be transferred if an unofficial dealer sells it.  If it does lapse or get cancelled the new owner has to find the last owner who had the warranty in their name and get them to present the car as their own and have it extended.  I think non approved dealers try to get around it by selling on consignment, but that is risky IMO.

[SS 3]

3 hours ago, sleazius said:

I honestly just think all this exuberance is interest rate driven. Money is practically free at the moment.

I'd be shocked if we don't see a savage correction in car pricing once interest rates head north - remember when GT3s use to depreciate? 🤣

996, 997, 991, they *should* all get hammered. That doesn't mean they will, just that it is likely under that scenario

I agree,  the pump priming over last 2 years combined with record low rates is the perfect storm. Let’s see how it unravels for people. I think the good times are behind us.

[on_booost]

2 hours ago, SS 3 said:

I agree,  the pump priming over last 2 years combined with record low rates is the perfect storm. Let’s see how it unravels for people. I think the good times are behind us.

Lets revisit the $$$ question in 12 months?

My feeling is this:

If you're a buyer - you're hoping for a "correction" but given a new GT3 is ~$450K - I say the market for good cars might flatten - or slightly reverse - but nothing like a "reset" or an "unraveling".

I could be wrong (I've sold 2 x cars in the past 3 months - and about to list a 3rd) so time will tell...

I think the $$ will always be strong for the right cars due to, low volume, the change in demographic for Porsche over the last 15 years and Nostalgia being alive and well across all P-Cars, + our small wealthy market.

[DD911]

On 15/11/2021 at 22:34, spiller said:

That is some scary shit. It’s a real shame these cars suffer from such an inherent design flaw with catastrophic consequences. Especially considering GT3s are otherwise widely regarded as the bulletproof track tool of choice. Seemingly too, the issue is much more prevalent than the overly discussed IMS failures or bore scoring for that matter.  A strange time for Porsche in that era, chocolate engines, PDK only “because we couldn’t afford to develop a manual gearbox”. You have to wonder WTF they were they thinking with that car. Big Corp are always bean counting, I get that, but it wasn’t as if they were strapped for cash. It will be fantastic if and when the aftermarket can devise a solution that makes them a reliable option again. 

My thinking is the aftermarket 'fix' won't come until the warranties run out in a few years time, that's if it there is a viable fix at all. If you had a warranty why would you bother? You're right it is a shame as when it's going it is an extraordinary car - easily the best overall performance per $. 

On 15/11/2021 at 21:46, MFX said:

I have seen Porsche's 'fix' open on a bench. The issue is an inherent design flaw. It basically does not get enough oil to the top cams and the cams/finger followers wear out. Porsche's 'fix' is basically just adding a harder coating to the followers and cams, but does not address the oiling issue. Basically the 'fixed' engines will last a bit longer before they wear out. 

Performance Developments in the US developed a fix for these engines which includes new finger followers, and oil fixes, but it is pricey and you have to actually send the engine to them to get done. 

There is a reason 991.1's look like such a bargain in the GT3 market

Thanks Jeff. Looks like the only viable option is to price in the solution as a discount up front but the solution does not really exist. Maybe after warranties run out one will be born as per 996/7 IMS but probably not enough volume to make it worth it.... Looks like saving more pennies is he only option damn it. Love the YT channel BTW. Cheers.

[MFX]

2 hours ago, DD911 said:

My thinking is the aftermarket 'fix' won't come until the warranties run out in a few years time, that's if it there is a viable fix at all. If you had a warranty why would you bother? You're right it is a shame as when it's going it is an extraordinary car - easily the best overall performance per $. 

Thanks Jeff. Looks like the only viable option is to price in the solution as a discount up front but the solution does not really exist. Maybe after warranties run out one will be born as per 996/7 IMS but probably not enough volume to make it worth it.... Looks like saving more pennies is he only option damn it. Love the YT channel BTW. Cheers.

As I said there is an aftermarket fix, but it will never be as simple as the 996 IMS fix. It is a much more complicated issue and requires the entire top end on the engine to be pulled down however you do it.

[DJM]

On 16/11/2021 at 09:57, SS 3 said:

I agree,  the pump priming over last 2 years combined with record low rates is the perfect storm. Let’s see how it unravels for people. I think the good times are behind us.

There’s a stack of money about, just had our best ever monthly sales result in our business since we started in 2006……..that’s with display homes closed, zoom meetings with clients and staff working from home until early Nov.  Go figure……🤷‍♂️  Kept me a vial of that bat flu to re-release next year 😂