996 GT3 Purchase

[James P]

Hi all... i have listed my 996.1 GT3 Clubsport for sale, if anyone has an interest in it feel free to call, see Carsales listing 

I may look at swapping for an air-cooled coupe or Cup Car with cash difference?

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/1999-porsche-911-gt3-clubsport-996-manual/SSE-AD-16315225/?Cr=0

 

[tomo]

3 hours ago, James P said:

Hi all... i have listed my 996.1 GT3 Clubsport for sale, if anyone has an interest in it feel free to call, see Carsales listing 

I may look at swapping for an air-cooled coupe or Cup Car?

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/1999-porsche-911-gt3-clubsport-996-manual/SSE-AD-16315225/?Cr=0

 

No you can not ,! I haven't got an air cooled or cup to swap. Waaaaarh.

[davidtran]

3 hours ago, James P said:

Hi all... i have listed my 996.1 GT3 Clubsport for sale, if anyone has an interest in it feel free to call, see Carsales listing 

I may look at swapping for an air-cooled coupe or Cup Car?

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/1999-porsche-911-gt3-clubsport-996-manual/SSE-AD-16315225/?Cr=0

 

I tried to message you, but says not receiving messages. 

[James P]

10 hours ago, davidtran said:

I tried to message you, but says not receiving messages. 

I have cleared out my inbox so should be all good now or just call me on 0417369649 Cheers James

[Joz]

If only i had a lazy coupla $100k lying around!

[Peter John]

Mk1 in white ooh la la 

[911]

Does anyone know the cost involved for rebuilding a 996 GT3?

A friend just had a PPI done on one that was 'tracked a few times' according to the seller, but PPI came back saying its been heavily tracked given wear and tear and considering mileage (42,000kms). They even showed him areas on the paint where the colour is different due to stickers being removed. Along with a list of issues mainly to do with the cooling. The body seems good, but but he was told by the workshop, a rebuild may be on the cards down the track and I think it's put him off the car. Hard to believe it, but these cars are almost 25 years old now, so maybe fair to expect rebuilds starting to be common? 

Seller seems reasonable given the PPI. Just wondering if he should walk away or try negotiating a bit. 

I done some reading for him and I think cup cars need a rebuild every approx 80 hours. Given this car might have quite a few hours under its belt. How do the standard road cars compare to that figure? 

[P-Kay]

mine's got over 100K on it and has been well and truly spanked by it's previous owners (I don't have big enough brass to push it anywhere near it's limits) As far as my but dyno can tell, she still pulls hard for my weekend warrior needs  

Regarding the rebuild question, you would have to imagine several 10s of thousands, but I would definitely go for a 3.9 conversion, then you just need to add a few 10s of thousands......

mind you I have no direct reference of cost. the numbers above are my expectation

[TwoHeadsTas]

1 hour ago, 911 said:

Does anyone know the cost involved for rebuilding a 996 GT3?

A friend just had a PPI done on one that was 'tracked a few times' according to the seller, but PPI came back saying its been heavily tracked given wear and tear and considering mileage (42,000kms). They even showed him areas on the paint where the colour is different due to stickers being removed. Along with a list of issues mainly to do with the cooling. The body seems good, but but he was told by the workshop, a rebuild may be on the cards down the track and I think it's put him off the car. Hard to believe it, but these cars are almost 25 years old now, so maybe fair to expect rebuilds starting to be common? 

Seller seems reasonable given the PPI. Just wondering if he should walk away or try negotiating a bit. 

I done some reading for him and I think cup cars need a rebuild every approx 80 hours. Given this car might have quite a few hours under its belt. How do the standard road cars compare to that figure? 

@James P is probably the best person to answer your question, but it is probably a "how long is a piece of string" answer. 

Just to give you some idea, I owned what I think was the 2nd highest mileage 996.1 GT3 in Oz up until 18 months ago.  I did some 25,000 kms in it over the 2 1/2 years I had it.  When I purchased it at 118,000kms it had reportedly had one largish overrev that was clearly disclosed by Porschaden, with a recommendation that I consider a top end re-build.  The car history was mainly road, with some track sessions early in life (perhaps mainly the original owner who only owned it 12 months or so), and occasionally by the 2nd owner who had it for nearly 20 years.  The over-rev was advised by the PO to have occurred in a missed downshift at Sandown.

I discussed this thoroughly with my mechanic who has had significant experience with racing Porsches, and his advice was that given the circumstances of the overrev, that it had occurred a few years and many kms before, and there were absolutely no detectible issues relating to this, that we leave it, but obviously keep a listen / watch out in case anything develops.  Nothing ever did.  A top end rebuild had been estimated at $10-$15k.

The issue we did have was with the clutch.  Although it had had a Single Mass flywheel installed (car was a Komfort so had the Dual Mass as standard) the clutch was very, very heavy.  I persisted with it for 12 months or so then bit the bullet.  We found a few things as we went in, and eventually replaced the clutch, flywheel, fork, throwout bearings etc etc, and also did a bit of "while you have the engine out" stuff like the coolant expansion tank, water pump etc.  It turns out that the fork was actuating at a very strange angle, not sure what happened there, and surprised it hadn't been detected and fixed during the no expense spared maintenance history with the motorsport division of the OPC.  There was also some silicone sealant used in a previous reseating of the waterpump which again wouldn't be expected of the motorsport division, so perhaps someone else got in there at some stage.....  Anyway, this cost of this was in the region of $10-12K IIRC

These are otherwise very robust engines, and obviously the Mezger doesn't suffer from the IMS issues of stock engine, but are no-where near as stressed as a Cup car engine.

But, if I was buying atm, it would be James P's car I'd be looking at....

[James P]

2 hours ago, 911 said:

Does anyone know the cost involved for rebuilding a 996 GT3?

A friend just had a PPI done on one that was 'tracked a few times' according to the seller, but PPI came back saying its been heavily tracked given wear and tear and considering mileage (42,000kms). They even showed him areas on the paint where the colour is different due to stickers being removed. Along with a list of issues mainly to do with the cooling. The body seems good, but but he was told by the workshop, a rebuild may be on the cards down the track and I think it's put him off the car. Hard to believe it, but these cars are almost 25 years old now, so maybe fair to expect rebuilds starting to be common? 

Seller seems reasonable given the PPI. Just wondering if he should walk away or try negotiating a bit. 

I done some reading for him and I think cup cars need a rebuild every approx 80 hours. Given this car might have quite a few hours under its belt. How do the standard road cars compare to that figure? 

I wouldn't be worried about a GT3 being tracked/raced, it all comes down to condition, as for the engine life i find most shops will give advise to cover themselves incase something goes bad, In my experience the GT3 engine is bulletproof even high milage & heavily tracked, unless there is an actual proven issue with it id go for it.

[Peter John]

4 hours ago, 911 said:

Does anyone know the cost involved for rebuilding a 996 GT3?

A friend just had a PPI done on one that was 'tracked a few times' according to the seller, but PPI came back saying its been heavily tracked given wear and tear and considering mileage (42,000kms). They even showed him areas on the paint where the colour is different due to stickers being removed. Along with a list of issues mainly to do with the cooling. The body seems good, but but he was told by the workshop, a rebuild may be on the cards down the track and I think it's put him off the car. Hard to believe it, but these cars are almost 25 years old now, so maybe fair to expect rebuilds starting to be common? 

Seller seems reasonable given the PPI. Just wondering if he should walk away or try negotiating a bit. 

I done some reading for him and I think cup cars need a rebuild every approx 80 hours. Given this car might have quite a few hours under its belt. How do the standard road cars compare to that figure? 

Which one are we referring to? 42,000 sounds familiar?

Mk1 cars all saw a track, there were 90 and I am sure not many were cotton wooled - in my limited knowledge, they were the ducks guts at the time- before the mk1 GT3 CUP. 

Track used cars are more often than not better looked after than road cars but of course could have had hit after hit like the big fella from Graceland. 
 

Buyer beware sure but I’d suggest lowering expectations with a Mk1- we would all love a virgin. 
 

Rebuild wise give a shop a call- not all that much different to a Carrera donk I’m sure- 20-30k. If you do such be sure to keep it for longer. They are great cars. 

[911]

5 minutes ago, Peter John said:

Which one are we referring to? 42,000 sounds familiar?

Mk1 cars all saw a track, there were 90 and I am sure not many were cotton wooled - in my limited knowledge, they were the ducks guts at the time- before the mk1 GT3 CUP. 

Track used cars are more often than not better looked after than road cars but of course could have had hit after hit like the big fella from Graceland. 
 

Buyer beware sure but I’d suggest lowering expectations with a Mk1- we would all love a virgin. 
 

Rebuild wise give a shop a call- not all that much different to a Carrera donk I’m sure- 20-30k. If you do such be sure to keep it for longer. They are great cars. 

Thanks for the replies everyone. It's a speed yellow mk1. It's not advertised yet. I think it will be if it's not purchased. He's made an offer on it. Interesting about the over revving. I didn't even know they could pick that up through the ECU. Not sure if they checked that during the PPI. 

I think the being heavily tracked has put him off unfortunately. Given what is said above, it's not the end of the world. The interior makes a bit more sense now with a few marks on the dash and headliner. Helmets and whatever else in its previous life.

He's offered $25k below the discussed price before PPI was done. At least if it's accepted, it covers the issues in the PPI and some of a rebuild if it happens to need it down the track. At that price it will be the cheapest GT3 I've seen sold in a while, so he can't go wrong I guess We will see what happens over the weekend. 

Thanks everyone. 

[TwoHeadsTas]

2 hours ago, 911 said:

Thanks for the replies everyone. It's a speed yellow mk1. It's not advertised yet. I think it will be if it's not purchased. He's made an offer on it. Interesting about the over revving. I didn't even know they could pick that up through the ECU. Not sure if they checked that during the PPI. 

From memory the .1 ECU recorded only 2 levels of over-rev, can't remember what the ranges are though.  It also says how many engine hours since the over-rev.  Later models recorded more over-rev ranges so you could refine these more

[edgy]

I wouldn’t worry about a GT3 that’s been tracked (more worried when they aren’t 😆) as the others have said, condition, maintenance and a thorough inspection in the positive  (comp, leak down & over revs if you want to be super safe) should be all you need to have the confidence to proceed! These cars are very bullet proof, and even so if you break it/boof it, they’re designed to be repaired trackside, or worse in the ER room… 

 

 

[mc968cs]

Your a brave man @edgy. 

Regarding rebuild costs for the GT3 Metzger engines… They are more expensive now. I’ve had 4 gt3 rebuilds including last one taking capacity up to 3.9. 
The labour hours haven’t changed on the rebuild (100 hours by the book), but the prices of the parts from Porsche sure has.
They were circa $22-30 for a turnkey refresh incl dyno run in and oil change, then $40, then over $50k. 
I think you could safely assume $70+ now…

Talk to your workshops. 

[DJM]

1 hour ago, mc968cs said:

Your a brave man @edgy. 

Regarding rebuild costs for the GT3 Metzger engines… They are more expensive now. I’ve had 4 gt3 rebuilds including last one taking capacity up to 3.9. 
The labour hours haven’t changed on the rebuild (100 hours by the book), but the prices of the parts from Porsche sure has.
They were circa $22-30 for a turnkey refresh incl dyno run in and oil change, then $40, then over $50k. 
I think you could safely assume $70+ now…

Talk to your workshops. 

996 GT2 Mezger rebuild cost me 65k (3.8 carillo rods, Mahle pistons etc) but that included a 15k core engine given mine spat out a rod…..so 50k rebuild but that was several year ago.  I’d prefer not to test it again…..

[911]

8 hours ago, mc968cs said:

Your a brave man @edgy. 

Regarding rebuild costs for the GT3 Metzger engines… They are more expensive now. I’ve had 4 gt3 rebuilds including last one taking capacity up to 3.9. 
The labour hours haven’t changed on the rebuild (100 hours by the book), but the prices of the parts from Porsche sure has.
They were circa $22-30 for a turnkey refresh incl dyno run in and oil change, then $40, then over $50k. 
I think you could safely assume $70+ now…

Talk to your workshops. 

Wow! 

I'll stick to aircooled 😂 That being said you're probably at around $40k for a 3.2 rebuild. 

 

[LeeM]

1 hour ago, 911 said:

Wow! 

I'll stick to aircooled 😂 That being said you're probably at around $40k for a 3.2 rebuild. 

 

 Unless you live in Sydney using a certain shop, then you can add $20-30k to that

[911]

4 hours ago, LeeM said:

 Unless you live in Sydney using a certain shop, then you can add $20-30k to that

$60k-$70k to rebuild a 3.2l motor to standard spec? 

That sounds excessive?

There's a complete one for sale for $45k.

[sleazius]

VW needed money to pay their diesel-gate fines, GT cars and special editions were targeted to raise those funds.

They’ll keep raising prices until people stop buying.

[LeeM]

6 hours ago, 911 said:

$60k-$70k to rebuild a 3.2l motor to standard spec? 

That sounds excessive?

There's a complete one for sale for $45k.

 Yep. Know 2 people who were quoted $55-60 grand by the same shop mate. Excessive? Bloody extortion if you ask me.

 One owner said they'd supply the parts, yet the 'shop' said they would do the labour for $35,000, but they would only warranty their work, as they can't guarantee the parts. You can imagine the shit fight if anything went wrong with that! "Nah, wasn't our work, it was a parts failure..." 🤔

 Also spoke to a very reputable private Porsche engine builder at length over a few days last week, and he told me one 356 owner was quoted $60-70,000 to rebuild his engine, IF they can get the parts.

 I always steer people towards @Mike D'Silva (who is the one selling the engine you mentioned) if they want an engine rebuilt

[AndrewM]

9 minutes ago, LeeM said:

One owner said they'd supply the parts, yet the 'shop' said they would do the labour for $35,000, but they would only warranty their work, as they can't guarantee the parts. You can imagine the shit fight if anything went wrong with that! "Nah, wasn't our work, it was a parts failure..." 🤔

How many hours go into a complete clean up and rebuild?35k is about 175 hours. Is that enough? No idea.

Part of the small amount of money shops make on the parts is to insure/ cover them if the parts fail and they need to redo the work. I don't envy the builder here, because you are now in a position where you need to have that uncomfortable discussion with the customer that their supplied part may have failed, you now need to pull the thing apart again, and now you need to prove it to the customer, which may not always be clear. I don't imagine all customers are equally fair... 

 

[Mike D'Silva]

Where are these customers willing to pay $35k just for labour?

I'd happily do the work for half that!!!!

 

[LeeM]

31 minutes ago, Mike D'Silva said:

Where are these customers willing to pay $35k just for labour?

I'd happily do the work for half that!!!!

 

 Well they weren't willing mate 😅 How much of a shop rebuild is labour? Probably 70% of the cost I imagine

[tomo]

On 02/12/2023 at 21:36, LeeM said:

 Yep. Know 2 people who were quoted $55-60 grand by the same shop mate. Excessive? Bloody extortion if you ask me.

 One owner said they'd supply the parts, yet the 'shop' said they would do the labour for $35,000, but they would only warranty their work, as they can't guarantee the parts. You can imagine the shit fight if anything went wrong with that! "Nah, wasn't our work, it was a parts failure..." 🤔

 Also spoke to a very reputable private Porsche engine builder at length over a few days last week, and he told me one 356 owner was quoted $60-70,000 to rebuild his engine, IF they can get the parts.

 I always steer people towards @Mike D'Silva (who is the one selling the engine you mentioned) if they want an engine rebuilt

Yep ,Mike's the Air-cooled guy. Forsure.